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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 576 for the 27th of

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October 2019 returns saunders here with

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you from Sydney Australia yesterday in

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Sydney Australia it was hot

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gusty winds hot strong gusty winds which

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were hot and gusty men windy I don't

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know what was going on yesterday it was

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crazy certainly doesn't help the

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bushfire a forest fire situation in this

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country at the moment

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and indeed in California where I spend a

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lot of time right now also they have

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forest fire problems but regardless of

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that coming up on this week's show we

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continue the reports of Barbara O'Neill

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the naturopath who was banned from

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providing health care services here in

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Australia just recently and we read of

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her exploits in the Cook Islands that

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little Pacific nation and I would say if

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she's giving bad advice in Australia

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there's no reason why that advice

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wouldn't be equally as bad anywhere she

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provides it around the world we'll find

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out the latest from the Cook Islands

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coming up at the top of the show

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following that it's guest reporter Rob

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Palmer who had does work for the

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guerrilla skepticism on Wikipedia he's

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also writing for The Skeptical Inquirer

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he went to psych on 2019 in Las Vegas

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just last weekend sorry I couldn't be

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there reports coming in say it was a

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good event people learnt a lot of things

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which is hardly surprising Rob was kind

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enough to offer to do some interviews so

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he's a special guest reporter this week

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and next week two on the skeptic zone

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this is part one and Rob will interview

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seth shostack dr. seth shostack who is

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involved in SETI the search for

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extraterrestrial intelligence Rob also

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talks to Paola from Argentina Mentalist

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mark Edward and Natalia and Carlos from

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Brazil then to round off the show part

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two of fighting words the item by Tim

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mend

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was published in the pages of the

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skeptic all about the history of free

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speech and thank you to those people who

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wrote in during the week at the Facebook

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page to comment on Tim's article which

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was part one about free speech and in

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the coming weeks we have even more

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articles and items written and read by

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Tim Mendham well that's enough for me at

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the moment I'm going to run downstairs

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and have a slice of pizza I'll tell you

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why I've been watching a show on the

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special Broadcasting Network here in

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Australia I think it's just called the

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pizza show while you watch a couple of

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those episodes and what do you want to

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do you want to run down the stairs and

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have a pizza will I do that

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I hope you enjoy the skeptics

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now for the last few weeks we've been

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bringing you the story of naturopath I

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wonder if I can say for my naturopath

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Rhonda Barbara O'Neill who was banned

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for life here in Australia from

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practicing health care and in the past

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week these articles have been brought to

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my attention from the Cook Islands

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now the Cook Islands are a small group

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of islands and Pacific Ocean about who a

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third of the way between New Zealand and

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the United States from the Cook Islands

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news online at Cook Islands news.com ban

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on healer who offered cancer cure to

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dying Cook Islands man and it says in

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part Australian claims to treat cancer

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with baking soda and advises against

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vaccinating children in visits to

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Rowlett injure a self-professed natural

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healer who runs regular workshops in

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Cook Islands has been permanently banned

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from providing health services or

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lectures after giving potentially fatal

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health advice to ill people New South

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Wales healthcare Complaints Commission

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found Barber o Neill told people their

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cancer was a fungus that could be cured

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with baking soda rather than through

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conventional medical treatment she also

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gave misleading and dangerous pregnancy

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and child-rearing advice through her

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seminars website online lectures and

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consultations with clients however the

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Commission has no power to ban O'Neill

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from continuing her free workshops in

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the Cook Islands she had visited twice

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and she's booked to return in May next

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year close supporter Cheryl masters who

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helped O'Neill run workshops in cine

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Hall last month revealed the death of a

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Cook Islands

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who had been following O'Neal's advice

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in the hope of curing his cancer the

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cancer had progressed to stage four when

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the man decided to follow O'Neal's

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recommended sodium bicarbonate treatment

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the man who resides in New Zealand had

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returned to Rohit Tonga to undergo

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treatment with the help of their group

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she said his last treatment which

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involved applying a solution of baking

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soda lemon juice and boiled water to the

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skin then wrapping the patient in towels

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was three months ago

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as a result Master said he had survived

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to spend two quality years with his

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family unfortunately she said he passed

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away a week ago masters confirmed Anil

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had advised on cancer remedies in

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Rarotonga but had always emphasized

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these were a matter of choice and as a

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side note I'll say well as if that

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absolves her at all we read on and she

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never charged them anything when she

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came here Master said she had asked

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about the complaints O'Neill had

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insisted she was falsely accused we read

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on a bit later where it says masters

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said the event that Anil attended last

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month received good support from the

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community quote this is a country that

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supports the use of Maori medicine and

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use of natural remedies like plants and

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trees to cure sicknesses it's common

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here it's common in the Pacific Enquirer

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but Kate Walker whose mother Gloria died

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and was buried

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in the Nichols cemetery following

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unsuccessful cancer treatment from

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notorious therapist Milan bride

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expressed alarm at O'Neill's remedies

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quote it disturbs me greatly to hear a

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naturopath and naturopath is in

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quotation marks who has been permanently

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banned in Australia is being promoted in

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the Cook Islands been quote and jaehwan

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Makai past president of the Cook Islands

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to breast cancer foundation warned that

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cancer sufferers should be cautious

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about whom they take medical advice from

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quote take the time to

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search people and what they say in quote

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she said quote make sure there's actual

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scientific evidence to back up their

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claims and remember there's a reason why

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hospitals employ qualified cancer

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specialists they know what they're

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talking about don't let yourself or

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loved ones buy into false hope unquote

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now there's more on that page our link

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to that in the show notes but a few days

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later also in the Cook Islands news

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came this story banned healer breaks

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silence to protest her innocence the

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naturopath who's cook islands disciples

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continue to practice her prohibited

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remedies say she is the victim of a Nazi

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style propaganda campaign a

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self-professed healer learned she was to

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be banned from advising people on their

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health while she was visiting seminars

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across the Pacific in Rohit Unga

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and Indonesia Barbra and Michael O'Neill

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have written to the Cook Islands news

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providing the response she pinned to the

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health care Complaints Commission

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she was running seminars here for the

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seventh-day Adventist Church they say

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which were also attended by members of

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the public in her response to the

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complaints Commission penned in

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Indonesia after she flew out of Raw

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Otunga she agrees her health advice is

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not supported by quote mainstream

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medicine end quote but rejects the

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claims it is not evidence-based quote I

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am writing this response from an

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overseas country that is classified as a

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developing country end quote Anil says

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she can treat cancer with begging syrup

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and advises patients against giving

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their children the MMR vaccine a vaccine

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that is the cornerstone of the Pacific

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regions battle against a measles

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outbreak quote I am NOT mainstream I

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have never claimed to be and quote she

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wrote quote you have not produced one

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single instance of harm to any person

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ever from my advice with regard to the

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vaccine issue it is now government

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policy to promote vaccination and the

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stream press are 100% onboard with a

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propaganda campaign that would make

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gurbles proud end quote

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now Godwin's law or Godwin's rule of

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Hitler analogies according to Wikipedia

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is an internet outage asserting that

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quote as an online discussion grows

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longer the probability of a comparison

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involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one

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in quote that is if an online discussion

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regardless of topic or scope sooner or

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later someone will compare someone or

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something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds

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the point at which effectively the

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discussion or thread often ends we read

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on with a report where the Secretary of

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Health and the Cook Islands said she was

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concerned to learn an eel had been

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running health workshops in Rarotonga

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goes on to say the Ministry of Health

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has extended its use of the MMR vaccine

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to six-month-old babies the high uptake

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of childhood immunization he says has

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been hailed as the reason there is no

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measles here now New Zealand is

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following Cook Islands lead in a bid to

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combat its potentially fatal measles

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outbreak

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Michael O'Neil mrs. Barbara O'Neill's

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husband said on his wife's visit to the

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Cook Islands she spoke of the quote

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eight laws of health

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end quote that were core to her beliefs

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quote she believes the body is designed

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to heal itself and will do so given the

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right conditions end quote and I'll just

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say as an aside that's a red flag if I

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see something like eight laws of health

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I mean really I mean that just comes

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straight out of the quackery 101

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handbook doesn't it I follow the eight

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laws of health here they are the eight

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laws of health and it ends by reminding

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us that the the Commission here in

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Australia permanently banned O'Neill

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concern that she had told terminally ill

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people their cancer was a fungus and

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that could be cured with baking soda she

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also gave dangerous pregnancy

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the Commission found now those two

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reports come from the Cook Islands news

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again I'll link to both of those in this

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week's show notes and I noticed at the

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bottom of the latest report there is one

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comment from our old friend Ken MacLeod

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who writes ah the first response of a

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crank is to label their critics Nazis so

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I find it very interesting to read both

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these reports and I must think report am

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andy lee noble who is the diet skeptic

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on the skeptic zone for alerting me to

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this well we certainly hope that our neo

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can be banned in the Cook Islands in

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Indonesia in New Zealand or anywhere

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else she tries to practice her

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interesting form of quackery

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the reason was the interview shot from

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the Merseyside skeptic society where

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each month I speak to someone about

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their fringe beliefs over the Earth's

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are spoken to psychics UFO believers

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moon landing and ayahs flat earthers

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Hollow Earth as an all manner of unusual

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conspiracy theorists but I've also

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talked to aids denialists white

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supremacists gay conversion therapy

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I even interviewed Jim Humble the

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inventor of miracle mineral supplement a

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form of industrial bleach that he and

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his followers used to treat cancer and

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HIV this isn't a debate show my aim

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isn't to win an argument but when we

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listen to how people promote and justify

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the ideas that we disagree with even the

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dangerous ones I think we become much

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more effective at countering those ideas

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if that sounds like something you'd be

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interested in look for be reasonable on

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Apple podcasts and everywhere else a

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podcast

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00:14:28,330 --> 00:14:26,020
hi this is Rob Palmer also known as the

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well-known skeptic I write for such

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publications as the skeptical Inquirer

305
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and I'm also involved with the guerrilla

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skepticism on Wikipedia project gso w in

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mid-october I attended psych on 2019 in

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00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:41,600
Las Vegas Nevada where I gave a Sunday

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00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:43,970
papers presentation I also found time to

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00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:46,450
do some interviews for the skeptic zone

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this week is part one where I chat to

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00:14:55,540 --> 00:14:52,040
seth shostack about the search for alien

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life Paula from Argentina Mentalist mark

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Edward and Natalia and Carlos from

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so I've run in a to dr. Seth Shostak

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00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:07,730
who's one of the speakers who hasn't yet

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given his presentation and I am really

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00:15:15,420 --> 00:15:11,750
looking forward to it and that's because

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it's gonna deal with aliens and and

320
00:15:19,630 --> 00:15:18,019
basically like looking for aliens and

321
00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:19,640
how should we do that and I have friends

322
00:15:22,210 --> 00:15:21,529
who tell me why are we wasting money on

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00:15:24,759 --> 00:15:22,220
the search for extraterrestrial

324
00:15:26,170 --> 00:15:24,769
intelligence with radio waves when

325
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:26,180
they're all around us abducting people

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00:15:30,759 --> 00:15:27,110
in mutilating cows

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well indeed i'm seth shostack I'm an

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00:15:35,130 --> 00:15:32,720
astronomer I'm actually the senior

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astronomer at the SETI Institute in

330
00:15:39,759 --> 00:15:37,430
California and we are indeed looking for

331
00:15:42,430 --> 00:15:39,769
life in space we're not looking for life

332
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:42,440
in our air space however and I will talk

333
00:15:46,780 --> 00:15:44,930
about some of my experiences and dealing

334
00:15:51,759 --> 00:15:46,790
with people who think that we do have

335
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:51,769
such visitors yes many many so to those

336
00:15:55,780 --> 00:15:53,450
people what would you say is the best

337
00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:55,790
reason to not believe that dude that we

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00:16:00,400 --> 00:15:57,410
don't have those visitors well I think

339
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:00,410
it's very I think it's a bit unfair to

340
00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:03,290
ask people well prove that they're not

341
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:04,910
here you you really have to prove that

342
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:06,890
they are here if you maintain that as a

343
00:16:11,290 --> 00:16:09,050
third of the population does and so they

344
00:16:12,850 --> 00:16:11,300
offer you know case studies if you will

345
00:16:15,069 --> 00:16:12,860
if you want to call them studies of

346
00:16:16,810 --> 00:16:15,079
Roswell being one of the most famous of

347
00:16:18,850 --> 00:16:16,820
these so everybody's heard a little bit

348
00:16:20,530 --> 00:16:18,860
about how the aliens came to earth and

349
00:16:23,889 --> 00:16:20,540
made a navigation error and crashed into

350
00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:23,899
the New Mexico desert supposedly but I

351
00:16:27,069 --> 00:16:25,310
don't see any very good evidence to that

352
00:16:29,139 --> 00:16:27,079
and I think maybe the the most telling

353
00:16:30,970 --> 00:16:29,149
evidence is the fact that tens of

354
00:16:32,860 --> 00:16:30,980
thousands of scientists around the world

355
00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:32,870
who would find this the most interesting

356
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:34,910
story going aren't working on it right

357
00:16:39,819 --> 00:16:36,970
right have you seen the latest

358
00:16:41,829 --> 00:16:39,829
information that was supposedly leaked

359
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:41,839
from the Navy regarding Navy pilots

360
00:16:46,319 --> 00:16:44,570
seeing aircraft and then that they

361
00:16:49,150 --> 00:16:46,329
couldn't identify and therefore giving

362
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:49,160
new instructions to pilots that they can

363
00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:50,480
indeed report these things would add

364
00:16:52,449 --> 00:16:51,920
embarrassment have you come across any

365
00:16:53,949 --> 00:16:52,459
of that

366
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:53,959
yeah sure that was a front-page story

367
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:55,370
about a year and a half ago in the New

368
00:16:58,750 --> 00:16:56,810
York Times below the fold but

369
00:17:00,550 --> 00:16:58,760
nonetheless however one of the authors

370
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:00,560
on that story one of the reporters

371
00:17:05,020 --> 00:17:01,970
happens to be somebody who's very

372
00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:05,030
tightly connected with the UFO community

373
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:07,520
so it wasn't that it was exactly an

374
00:17:12,559 --> 00:17:10,250
objective story in my opinion but in any

375
00:17:16,179 --> 00:17:12,569
case the Navy videos that anybody

376
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:16,189
can see which what was seen by these

377
00:17:20,990 --> 00:17:18,959
gunsight infrared cameras I mean surely

378
00:17:22,399 --> 00:17:21,000
there is something intriguing there but

379
00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:22,409
there's nothing in those videos I've

380
00:17:27,499 --> 00:17:24,329
looked at that can't be explained in

381
00:17:28,940 --> 00:17:27,509
very conventional ways and so I don't

382
00:17:30,620 --> 00:17:28,950
see any compelling reason to think that

383
00:17:32,180 --> 00:17:30,630
this is the proof that everybody

384
00:17:34,999 --> 00:17:32,190
swimming waiting for I've actually seen

385
00:17:36,499 --> 00:17:35,009
some YouTube videos by Nick West who

386
00:17:38,269 --> 00:17:36,509
spoke at Ikon last year I don't believe

387
00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:38,279
he's this year and his site is all about

388
00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:40,049
debunking conspiracies and he he took

389
00:17:45,350 --> 00:17:42,960
apart those gunsight videos so okay so

390
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:45,360
can you talk a little bit about SETI

391
00:17:49,340 --> 00:17:47,730
we're at with that yeah well with the

392
00:17:51,950 --> 00:17:49,350
SETI I mean the big problem with SETI

393
00:17:52,999 --> 00:17:51,960
and and in particular kind of a rebuttal

394
00:17:54,470 --> 00:17:53,009
to the people say why are we wasting

395
00:17:55,850 --> 00:17:54,480
money on that well you're not wasting

396
00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:55,860
very much money and none of it is

397
00:18:00,289 --> 00:17:57,450
taxpayer money so it's not your money

398
00:18:02,509 --> 00:18:00,299
anyhow people want to spend money on you

399
00:18:05,060 --> 00:18:02,519
know feeding their pet parakeets they're

400
00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:05,070
certainly entitled to do that and indeed

401
00:18:08,869 --> 00:18:06,720
the amount of money spent every day on

402
00:18:11,899 --> 00:18:08,879
parakeet feed greatly Dwarfs the amount

403
00:18:15,019 --> 00:18:11,909
spent on SETI so you know how much has

404
00:18:17,450 --> 00:18:15,029
been well it's roughly a million dollars

405
00:18:21,139 --> 00:18:17,460
a year for the whole world well so a

406
00:18:23,539 --> 00:18:21,149
year a year not a day so you know maybe

407
00:18:25,789 --> 00:18:23,549
a little bit more the berkeley group has

408
00:18:28,310 --> 00:18:25,799
some money from a russian billionaire

409
00:18:29,779 --> 00:18:28,320
who has taken an interest in this

410
00:18:31,249 --> 00:18:29,789
subject they have money nobody else

411
00:18:32,299 --> 00:18:31,259
really has any other money in fact the

412
00:18:34,129 --> 00:18:32,309
total number of people in the world

413
00:18:39,169 --> 00:18:34,139
doing said he's very very small because

414
00:18:41,269 --> 00:18:39,179
of that okay and last question is what

415
00:18:42,740 --> 00:18:41,279
other speakers what other presentations

416
00:18:44,899 --> 00:18:42,750
you know have you the ones you've seen

417
00:18:46,580 --> 00:18:44,909
already that you really enjoyed or that

418
00:18:48,889 --> 00:18:46,590
you're still looking forward to well

419
00:18:51,409 --> 00:18:48,899
well I've enjoyed many of them to be

420
00:18:52,639 --> 00:18:51,419
really honest several this morning and

421
00:18:54,379 --> 00:18:52,649
of course the listener doesn't know what

422
00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:54,389
we've talked about this morning but

423
00:18:58,999 --> 00:18:56,850
there was a Joe Schwartz who's well

424
00:19:02,539 --> 00:18:59,009
known in the skeptics community talked

425
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:02,549
about the baloney chemistry yeah very

426
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:05,330
interesting talk also the talk by the

427
00:19:10,460 --> 00:19:08,129
attorney for the Center for inquiry

428
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:10,470
talking about suing Nick little yes

429
00:19:15,340 --> 00:19:12,570
talking about suing the some of the

430
00:19:18,139 --> 00:19:15,350
large pharmacy retailers about putting

431
00:19:19,730 --> 00:19:18,149
homeopathic products on their shelves I

432
00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:19,740
mean obviously that is a word the thing

433
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:21,510
to do but it was very interesting to

434
00:19:26,690 --> 00:19:23,850
hear this story and also a guy

435
00:19:28,789 --> 00:19:26,700
Lentz Nathan Lentz who was talking about

436
00:19:30,380 --> 00:19:28,799
how we're so badly designed because

437
00:19:33,020 --> 00:19:30,390
we're the result of evolution which is a

438
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:33,030
bottom-up process I don't know you know

439
00:19:37,850 --> 00:19:34,650
how many people don't think that

440
00:19:40,220 --> 00:19:37,860
evolution isn't the way life is

441
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:40,230
evolve or has been produced on earth

442
00:19:44,870 --> 00:19:43,410
it's certainly on the order of 40 or 50

443
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:44,880
percent so it's a significant number and

444
00:19:49,100 --> 00:19:47,490
of course these arguments it might sway

445
00:19:50,990 --> 00:19:49,110
some of them although I had the feeling

446
00:19:52,159 --> 00:19:51,000
that the effects are not an issue yeah I

447
00:19:53,419 --> 00:19:52,169
have several people I work with which

448
00:19:54,830 --> 00:19:53,429
I'm actually thinking of buying several

449
00:19:56,779 --> 00:19:54,840
copies of his book and giving one to

450
00:19:59,240 --> 00:19:56,789
each but in fact I might be wasting my

451
00:20:01,880 --> 00:19:59,250
money well it would be good for mr.

452
00:20:04,270 --> 00:20:01,890
Lentz yes that's good all right thank

453
00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:04,280
you very much for your time okay welcome

454
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:07,049
well I found someone I think the skeptic

455
00:20:11,870 --> 00:20:08,880
zone listeners will be interested in

456
00:20:16,279 --> 00:20:11,880
hearing from what's your name my name is

457
00:20:18,649 --> 00:20:16,289
Paola and you're from Argentina Wow and

458
00:20:20,930 --> 00:20:18,659
how would the skeptic zone listeners and

459
00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:20,940
know your voice well they have probably

460
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:24,240
heard my promos on the skeptic zone

461
00:20:27,970 --> 00:20:26,210
I have a spanish-language one

462
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:27,980
[Music]

463
00:20:37,730 --> 00:20:33,210
and there's also the gorilla skeptics on

464
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:37,740
Wikipedia promo that I do with Rob so

465
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:40,110
how did you wind up doing the

466
00:20:50,350 --> 00:20:46,170
spanish-language one because Richard

467
00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:50,360
asked me to and I took very very long to

468
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:53,280
actually do it because I'm disorganized

469
00:20:59,300 --> 00:20:56,970
but I finally ended up doing it and you

470
00:21:01,610 --> 00:20:59,310
can hear not only my speaking voice

471
00:21:04,790 --> 00:21:01,620
there but my singing voice because I am

472
00:21:07,910 --> 00:21:04,800
also a tango and Argentine folkloric

473
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:07,920
music singer so Richard very kindly

474
00:21:12,650 --> 00:21:10,530
included that in the promo and for those

475
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:12,660
of us who are unfortunately language

476
00:21:17,020 --> 00:21:14,640
challenged and only speak English what

477
00:21:21,230 --> 00:21:17,030
did you say in that promo in Spanish oh

478
00:21:23,660 --> 00:21:21,240
let me remember it says that I'm Paola

479
00:21:26,690 --> 00:21:23,670
that I'm from Buenos Aires that we also

480
00:21:30,410 --> 00:21:26,700
listen to the skeptics on there and that

481
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:30,420
if the listeners are ever around when

482
00:21:36,470 --> 00:21:33,330
his iris I can show them around and take

483
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:36,480
them to dance tango maybe if they want

484
00:21:39,170 --> 00:21:37,410
very cool

485
00:21:40,790 --> 00:21:39,180
and so how did you get involved with

486
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:40,800
this whole movement I heard something in

487
00:21:46,250 --> 00:21:43,410
it to do with Randy well yeah actually I

488
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:46,260
don't quite remember I couldn't explain

489
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:49,530
how I got to know about Randy up it's

490
00:21:53,540 --> 00:21:51,840
probably on YouTube is iam on the

491
00:21:59,510 --> 00:21:53,550
Internet

492
00:22:01,820 --> 00:21:59,520
and in 2014 I think I learned that they

493
00:22:05,060 --> 00:22:01,830
were making a documentary about his life

494
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:05,070
and I admired him so much that I wrote

495
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:06,690
to the producers and I said I'm also a

496
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:09,330
translator I didn't mention that I'm

497
00:22:13,790 --> 00:22:11,610
asked if I could provide the Spanish

498
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:13,800
subtitling for the documentary so that

499
00:22:18,020 --> 00:22:15,090
it would be available for Spanish

500
00:22:23,750 --> 00:22:18,030
speakers and the documentary was it o-o

501
00:22:26,330 --> 00:22:23,760
honest liar about James Randy's life and

502
00:22:30,290 --> 00:22:26,340
they said yes so I did and after I

503
00:22:32,330 --> 00:22:30,300
finished the film I felt like sad that I

504
00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:32,340
would never get to meet Randy in person

505
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:39,070
in a town in 2015 they were going to be

506
00:22:46,820 --> 00:22:45,250
during an homage to him and decided to

507
00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:46,830
[Music]

508
00:22:57,210 --> 00:22:51,910
to attempt I didn't know anybody at all

509
00:23:00,870 --> 00:22:57,220
and then but I I just saw the thing

510
00:23:04,230 --> 00:23:00,880
decided to come just sign up got a plane

511
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:04,240
ticket and just jumped in and and you

512
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:06,490
got to meet Randy yes yes unfortunately

513
00:23:11,790 --> 00:23:10,210
a week before I got there I I drove to

514
00:23:14,850 --> 00:23:11,800
susan gerbic who seemed very involved

515
00:23:17,340 --> 00:23:14,860
you know the the plans and and she

516
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:17,350
introduced me to a lot of people and yes

517
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:19,930
I actually like the first thing that

518
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:21,730
happened I went to chicane into my room

519
00:23:26,270 --> 00:23:24,610
and it wasn't ready yet so I sat out of

520
00:23:30,030 --> 00:23:26,280
couch on the lobby and

521
00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:30,040
like a minute later Randy appeared and

522
00:23:35,010 --> 00:23:32,080
just sat next to me so it's like okay

523
00:23:37,290 --> 00:23:35,020
this is all just everything I needed

524
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:37,300
from this trip is the diamond like the

525
00:23:42,150 --> 00:23:39,010
first minute and you got to talk to him

526
00:23:45,210 --> 00:23:42,160
yeah yeah he's so so so nice

527
00:23:47,550 --> 00:23:45,220
always so fantastic that's fantastic and

528
00:23:50,250 --> 00:23:47,560
you got to see him at this conference he

529
00:23:52,890 --> 00:23:50,260
made a surprise appearance yes yes I saw

530
00:23:54,990 --> 00:23:52,900
him again in 2016 at psycho and after

531
00:23:57,630 --> 00:23:55,000
after that time which was the last one I

532
00:24:00,750 --> 00:23:57,640
a time as the amazing meeting before

533
00:24:06,030 --> 00:24:00,760
those who don't know and after that I

534
00:24:09,690 --> 00:24:06,040
came to psycho in 2016 in 2017 and yes I

535
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:09,700
saw him in 2016 and 17 I think yeah yeah

536
00:24:16,170 --> 00:24:13,090
so yeah no he was the hearing 2017 Oh 16

537
00:24:18,030 --> 00:24:16,180
yeah so yes and he's tier this year I'm

538
00:24:20,010 --> 00:24:18,040
very happy to know that he's here

539
00:24:21,390 --> 00:24:20,020
great and what are you most looking

540
00:24:24,420 --> 00:24:21,400
forward to at the conference besides

541
00:24:26,130 --> 00:24:24,430
maybe talking to Randy yet well to be

542
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:26,140
quite honest for me these conferences

543
00:24:31,740 --> 00:24:29,650
about are about the people I like

544
00:24:33,540 --> 00:24:31,750
attending the talks but it's more about

545
00:24:35,070 --> 00:24:33,550
the friends that I make you know they're

546
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:35,080
interesting conversations that have been

547
00:24:39,060 --> 00:24:37,450
very very different people for very

548
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:39,070
different backgrounds I've made tons of

549
00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:42,490
friends in that that I you know

550
00:24:49,050 --> 00:24:45,040
friendships that I continue over the

551
00:24:51,180 --> 00:24:49,060
year and yes this is what definitely

552
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:51,190
what I most enjoy about coming here

553
00:24:54,419 --> 00:24:52,450
great

554
00:24:55,530 --> 00:24:54,429
thanks for all that I've enjoyed the

555
00:25:00,160 --> 00:24:55,540
conference thank you

556
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:03,350
okay so I found yet another speaker and

557
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:05,850
this is someone who did a workshop on

558
00:25:09,710 --> 00:25:07,650
the first day which was yesterday can

559
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:09,720
you introduce yourself my name is Mark

560
00:25:16,010 --> 00:25:13,410
Edward and what was the workshop about

561
00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:16,020
the workshop was about skeptical

562
00:25:24,020 --> 00:25:19,910
activism susan gerbic and i have been

563
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:24,030
involved in several stings on psychics

564
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:26,400
and people who call themselves mediums

565
00:25:31,610 --> 00:25:29,610
and we're just starting to finally get

566
00:25:33,710 --> 00:25:31,620
some success with that so we wanted to

567
00:25:36,770 --> 00:25:33,720
share our methods and how we went about

568
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:36,780
setting it up so that anybody who's in a

569
00:25:42,350 --> 00:25:39,090
grassroots group who wants to do the

570
00:25:45,860 --> 00:25:42,360
same thing can do it and and understand

571
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:45,870
how it works fantastic so since it was a

572
00:25:49,790 --> 00:25:47,370
workshop does that mean it was

573
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:49,800
interactive yes it had that go

574
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:51,210
unfortunately I wanted to be ten years

575
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:53,490
and I was well we took a lot of

576
00:25:59,840 --> 00:25:55,530
questions over it because I've done

577
00:26:02,000 --> 00:25:59,850
other lectures on cold reading and hot

578
00:26:04,850 --> 00:26:02,010
reading and where it was a little more

579
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:04,860
interactive but I think in the situation

580
00:26:10,730 --> 00:26:07,410
we're in yesterday it was more the

581
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:10,740
newsworthy things and how we are setting

582
00:26:15,380 --> 00:26:13,200
our sights on yet another sting which is

583
00:26:18,050 --> 00:26:15,390
going to be we call it like to call it

584
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:18,060
the mother of all stings but we're

585
00:26:23,060 --> 00:26:20,370
holding out because we will not do it

586
00:26:28,150 --> 00:26:23,070
unless we have the conditions that we

587
00:26:31,070 --> 00:26:28,160
want and we want a major news or

588
00:26:35,450 --> 00:26:31,080
somebody who's out there who's a media

589
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:35,460
person or program that will give us more

590
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:37,410
than you know three and a half minutes

591
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:38,370
and

592
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:42,690
clear so it's so like with Thomas

593
00:26:47,180 --> 00:26:44,970
gentleman and York Times covered it yeah

594
00:26:50,750 --> 00:26:47,190
exactly because when you have somebody

595
00:26:52,610 --> 00:26:50,760
who's a major media concern like that it

596
00:26:54,710 --> 00:26:52,620
it gets out number one obviously

597
00:26:57,170 --> 00:26:54,720
obviously it gets out to the greatest

598
00:26:59,000 --> 00:26:57,180
amount of people and number two you have

599
00:27:01,280 --> 00:26:59,010
a bit of protection because they all

600
00:27:04,250 --> 00:27:01,290
have good lawyers and you don't really

601
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:04,260
you can you can get away with a lot more

602
00:27:08,930 --> 00:27:07,050
than you would if you just went to a

603
00:27:12,290 --> 00:27:08,940
local newspaper or something like that

604
00:27:14,210 --> 00:27:12,300
so prior to the start of the conference

605
00:27:16,130 --> 00:27:14,220
you and Susan went over to the coral

606
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:16,140
Science Academy I understand it to do a

607
00:27:23,780 --> 00:27:19,050
lecture for the school yes Susan has

608
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:23,790
been involved with getting sponsorships

609
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:27,360
for saikhan paid for few funding from

610
00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:31,170
the skeptical community and trying to

611
00:27:37,630 --> 00:27:33,990
bring the teenage eighth grade kids over

612
00:27:40,790 --> 00:27:37,640
here to introduce them to psych on and

613
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:40,800
critical thinking even though they are

614
00:27:45,620 --> 00:27:42,450
from a science Academy they're pretty

615
00:27:46,669 --> 00:27:45,630
much critical thinkers already we went

616
00:27:49,010 --> 00:27:46,679
over there and did a couple

617
00:27:53,210 --> 00:27:49,020
demonstrations I did some magic for the

618
00:27:54,620 --> 00:27:53,220
kids and Susan did talked a little bit

619
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:54,630
about we showed in the difference

620
00:27:58,940 --> 00:27:57,450
between a cold and a hot read which most

621
00:28:02,350 --> 00:27:58,950
people don't learn until they're in

622
00:28:05,060 --> 00:28:02,360
their adulthood so the kids were very

623
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:05,070
interested in this because they they had

624
00:28:11,090 --> 00:28:08,730
never seen this explained they had just

625
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:11,100
you know seeing television mediums and

626
00:28:17,450 --> 00:28:15,210
people who do this this kind of pretend

627
00:28:19,340 --> 00:28:17,460
psychic thing did you get it did you get

628
00:28:21,350 --> 00:28:19,350
a feel for did any of them believe in it

629
00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:21,360
before you you know talk to them about

630
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:24,240
it yes absolutely before we gave away

631
00:28:28,340 --> 00:28:26,370
the secrets their mouths were hanging

632
00:28:30,020 --> 00:28:28,350
open how did he know that there's no way

633
00:28:32,570 --> 00:28:30,030
in the world he could know that we loved

634
00:28:34,220 --> 00:28:32,580
that line we hear it all the time

635
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:34,230
there's no way in the world he could

636
00:28:39,140 --> 00:28:37,200
know that and with with kids that age we

637
00:28:42,230 --> 00:28:39,150
were just I was I was just using the

638
00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:42,240
simplest of cold reading generalities

639
00:28:48,260 --> 00:28:44,190
and they couldn't believe it in fact

640
00:28:52,130 --> 00:28:48,270
again this happens a lot even with

641
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:52,140
adults we once we explained everything

642
00:28:57,370 --> 00:28:55,530
he said this is how we do it one kid

643
00:29:01,130 --> 00:28:57,380
said so you do read people's thoughts

644
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:01,140
and I had to stop and say no I don't

645
00:29:04,820 --> 00:29:02,850
read people's thoughts and then I told

646
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:04,830
him something about himself again I said

647
00:29:11,060 --> 00:29:08,850
you you are a person who's really into

648
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:11,070
sports and competition and he was like

649
00:29:16,460 --> 00:29:13,370
what how did you know that and I said

650
00:29:18,410 --> 00:29:16,470
dude you're wearing track shoes you're

651
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:18,420
in really good physical condition

652
00:29:25,340 --> 00:29:21,330
you've got adidas clothing on what are

653
00:29:27,950 --> 00:29:25,350
the odds then he was like oh so we broke

654
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:27,960
through on a level that I don't think

655
00:29:33,140 --> 00:29:30,290
kids that age are even aware of

656
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:33,150
fantastic yeah all right and final

657
00:29:37,130 --> 00:29:35,850
question what other presentation that's

658
00:29:40,970 --> 00:29:37,140
still to come are you most looking

659
00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:40,980
forward to I want to see piff The Magic

660
00:29:46,220 --> 00:29:41,700
Dragon

661
00:29:47,510 --> 00:29:46,230
all right I inquired and he's really an

662
00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:47,520
interesting character so he should be

663
00:29:53,390 --> 00:29:50,550
very yeah III like eccentric magicians

664
00:29:55,340 --> 00:29:53,400
so I'm waiting all right

665
00:29:58,280 --> 00:29:55,350
thanks a lot thank you Mark attack you

666
00:30:00,140 --> 00:29:58,290
later I'm walking the halls of saikhan

667
00:30:03,500 --> 00:30:00,150
and have come across two people from San

668
00:30:06,290 --> 00:30:03,510
Paulo Brazil and one of them is giving a

669
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:06,300
presentation on the Sunday papers Carlos

670
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:08,010
can you first introduce yourself hi I am

671
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:09,930
Carlos or Z I am from Sao Paulo Brazil

672
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:13,290
and I am the editor of Keystone de

673
00:30:16,850 --> 00:30:15,090
ciencia magazine it's the only skeptical

674
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:16,860
magazine in Portuguese language I've

675
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:20,010
been published nowadays and Italia I'm

676
00:30:24,890 --> 00:30:22,770
his boss but actually I'm Natalia

677
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:24,900
Pasternak I'm also from Brazil and I run

678
00:30:29,570 --> 00:30:27,330
question of Science Institute which

679
00:30:31,340 --> 00:30:29,580
publishes the magazine and it's the

680
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:31,350
first Institute for the promotion of

681
00:30:35,510 --> 00:30:32,970
skepticism and rational thinking in

682
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:35,520
Brazil okay and what's your presentation

683
00:30:39,740 --> 00:30:37,290
going to be on we're going to talk about

684
00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:39,750
a national survey that the Institute

685
00:30:43,910 --> 00:30:41,310
conducted in Brazil this year about

686
00:30:46,310 --> 00:30:43,920
public perception of science but really

687
00:30:50,750 --> 00:30:46,320
focused on public understanding and

688
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:50,760
unwarranted beliefs in Brazil so most of

689
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:52,410
the public surveys conducted about

690
00:30:55,940 --> 00:30:54,240
perception of science they focus on what

691
00:30:58,370 --> 00:30:55,950
people think of science if they like it

692
00:31:00,860 --> 00:30:58,380
if they think it's important and we

693
00:31:02,010 --> 00:31:00,870
focus on how they perceive science what

694
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:02,020
they think science is all

695
00:31:07,170 --> 00:31:04,570
about and we have some conflicting

696
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:07,180
results with the older surveys that say

697
00:31:11,070 --> 00:31:08,770
that people are really interested in

698
00:31:12,690 --> 00:31:11,080
science and they really like it and so

699
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:12,700
the government should be funding it and

700
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:14,320
of course we agreed that the government

701
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:16,570
should be funding it but we are little

702
00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:19,810
concerned about what people really know

703
00:31:24,060 --> 00:31:22,510
about science so they may be calling

704
00:31:26,910 --> 00:31:24,070
science something that you wouldn't call

705
00:31:29,130 --> 00:31:26,920
science yes they are when we talk about

706
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:29,140
for instance medicine they may include

707
00:31:34,860 --> 00:31:32,050
homeopathy or acupuncture as science and

708
00:31:36,570 --> 00:31:34,870
that's what that's what we want to test

709
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:36,580
who that's what we conducted the survey

710
00:31:40,170 --> 00:31:38,320
say okay very good

711
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:40,180
and you spoke last year by the way it

712
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:41,650
was a similar topic but not the same

713
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:45,850
exactly no last year I spoke about the

714
00:31:51,180 --> 00:31:49,210
situation of science in Brazil and about

715
00:31:53,130 --> 00:31:51,190
the alternative medicine that runs in

716
00:31:55,530 --> 00:31:53,140
our public healthcare system paid for

717
00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:55,540
with taxpayers money and how we were

718
00:32:00,630 --> 00:31:58,090
about to launch the Institute because

719
00:32:02,670 --> 00:32:00,640
the Institute okay and so we were about

720
00:32:05,460 --> 00:32:02,680
to launch it and I gave a presentation

721
00:32:07,950 --> 00:32:05,470
of how I was going to tackle basically

722
00:32:10,860 --> 00:32:07,960
subject themes in Brazil very good

723
00:32:12,450 --> 00:32:10,870
so like off topic of your presentation

724
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:12,460
what other presentation are you most

725
00:32:23,910 --> 00:32:14,490
looking forward to both of you seeing

726
00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:23,920
this weekend so many but I think I'm

727
00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:25,600
really looking forward to try Campbell

728
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:28,510
and the marketing and the Disney

729
00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:31,570
Imagineering and just talk about it how

730
00:32:35,670 --> 00:32:34,420
we bring people to team science because

731
00:32:37,470 --> 00:32:35,680
I think it's something that we

732
00:32:39,690 --> 00:32:37,480
scientists and science communicators

733
00:32:42,660 --> 00:32:39,700
have never really paid much attention to

734
00:32:45,450 --> 00:32:42,670
and it would be good to see another

735
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:45,460
perspective okay all right thank you

736
00:32:55,820 --> 00:32:52,940
that was part one of my interviews from

737
00:32:57,570 --> 00:32:55,830
saikhan 2019 join me here in the skeptic

738
00:33:06,200 --> 00:32:57,580
zone next week for part two

739
00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:10,070
[Music]

740
00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:13,600
skeptic on 2019 the Australian skeptics

741
00:33:21,510 --> 00:33:15,670
National Convention will be in Melbourne

742
00:33:23,130 --> 00:33:21,520
from the 6th to the 8th of December we

743
00:33:25,530 --> 00:33:23,140
have an impressive speaker line-up

744
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:25,540
including the skeptics guide to the

745
00:33:31,050 --> 00:33:27,610
universe dr. Steve novella

746
00:33:34,410 --> 00:33:31,060
Jana Vela Cara Santa Maria Bob novella

747
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:34,420
and Evan Bernstein also susan gerbic

748
00:33:39,990 --> 00:33:37,360
from guerrilla skepticism on wikipedia

749
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:40,000
and many other international and local

750
00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:43,810
guests including joe Thorley the host of

751
00:33:50,330 --> 00:33:47,110
zealot a podcast about cults and an

752
00:33:52,980 --> 00:33:50,340
author of a book by the same name

753
00:33:55,530 --> 00:33:52,990
skeptic on includes a trivia night on

754
00:33:59,760 --> 00:33:55,540
Thursday the 5th of December to test

755
00:34:01,830 --> 00:33:59,770
your skeptical knowledge for more

756
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:01,840
information about the event the speakers

757
00:34:05,910 --> 00:34:04,320
and how to buy tickets visit skeptic

758
00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:05,920
on.org

759
00:34:09,570 --> 00:34:08,710
au or follow the link in this week's

760
00:34:26,290 --> 00:34:09,580
show notes

761
00:34:29,870 --> 00:34:26,300
[Music]

762
00:34:32,090 --> 00:34:29,880
hi I'm Tim Mendham executive officer

763
00:34:38,180 --> 00:34:32,100
Australian skeptics Inc and editor of

764
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:38,190
our magazine the skeptic today I'm going

765
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:40,410
to continue with our story on free

766
00:34:46,070 --> 00:34:43,170
speech if you know free speech is often

767
00:34:49,070 --> 00:34:46,080
used by proponents of pseudoscience and

768
00:34:50,690 --> 00:34:49,080
the paranormal so they can say anything

769
00:34:52,490 --> 00:34:50,700
they like and if you try and point it

770
00:34:55,070 --> 00:34:52,500
out that they're not actually accurate

771
00:34:57,620 --> 00:34:55,080
they get upset and they claim we're

772
00:34:59,300 --> 00:34:57,630
stopping their freedom of speech this is

773
00:35:02,210 --> 00:34:59,310
from an article called fighting words

774
00:35:06,770 --> 00:35:02,220
which appeared in the skeptic June 2019

775
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:06,780
which is vol 39 number 2 the first part

776
00:35:10,370 --> 00:35:08,130
of this we looked at the history of free

777
00:35:12,950 --> 00:35:10,380
speech and the fact that the famous

778
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:12,960
quote by Voltaire was never said by

779
00:35:16,670 --> 00:35:15,090
Voltaire and so we had to be careful

780
00:35:24,620 --> 00:35:16,680
that our understanding of free speech

781
00:35:26,930 --> 00:35:24,630
it's often full of holes this time I'm

782
00:35:30,740 --> 00:35:26,940
looking at the 20th century and the

783
00:35:34,070 --> 00:35:30,750
stronger global movement for freedom of

784
00:35:36,590 --> 00:35:34,080
speech now in the 20th century as

785
00:35:38,930 --> 00:35:36,600
politics and nation who had developed in

786
00:35:41,050 --> 00:35:38,940
the times between and after the two

787
00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:41,060
world wars the era of international

788
00:35:46,100 --> 00:35:44,310
interference in nation's social programs

789
00:35:48,650 --> 00:35:46,110
began first with the League of Nations

790
00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:48,660
and then with that harbinger of the

791
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:50,310
one-world government to the United

792
00:35:55,730 --> 00:35:53,330
Nations and its various offshoots

793
00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:55,740
freedom of expression is recognized as a

794
00:35:59,870 --> 00:35:58,410
human right and the article 19 of the

795
00:36:03,020 --> 00:35:59,880
Universal Declaration of Human Rights

796
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:03,030
and recognized in international human

797
00:36:09,010 --> 00:36:05,250
rights law in the International Covenant

798
00:36:11,090 --> 00:36:09,020
on Civil and Political Rights the UDHR

799
00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:11,100
was adopted by the United Nations

800
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:13,520
General Assembly on the 10th of December

801
00:36:21,350 --> 00:36:18,240
1948 as a resolution to 1/7 of the then

802
00:36:25,370 --> 00:36:21,360
58 members of the UN 48 voted in favor

803
00:36:28,420 --> 00:36:25,380
including Australia no voted against it

804
00:36:31,550 --> 00:36:28,430
8 abstained and 2 didn't vote at all

805
00:36:32,359 --> 00:36:31,560
article 19 states that quote everyone

806
00:36:34,039 --> 00:36:32,369
shall have the right

807
00:36:37,370 --> 00:36:34,049
to hold opinions without interference

808
00:36:40,130 --> 00:36:37,380
and everyone shall have the right to

809
00:36:42,349 --> 00:36:40,140
freedom of expression this right shall

810
00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:42,359
include freedom to seek receive and

811
00:36:47,630 --> 00:36:44,910
impart information and ideas of all

812
00:36:50,299 --> 00:36:47,640
kinds regardless of frontiers either

813
00:36:52,670 --> 00:36:50,309
orally in writing or in print in the

814
00:36:57,259 --> 00:36:52,680
form of art or through any other media

815
00:36:59,569 --> 00:36:57,269
of his choice in December 1966 the ICCPR

816
00:37:01,519 --> 00:36:59,579
which was the legal one was adopted as a

817
00:37:03,769 --> 00:37:01,529
multilateral treaty by the United

818
00:37:07,370 --> 00:37:03,779
Nations General Assembly it initially

819
00:37:09,950 --> 00:37:07,380
came into force from March 1976 and as

820
00:37:12,799 --> 00:37:09,960
of August 2017 the Covenant has a

821
00:37:15,190 --> 00:37:12,809
hundred and seventy-two parties and six

822
00:37:19,130 --> 00:37:15,200
more signatories without ratification

823
00:37:22,130 --> 00:37:19,140
Australia signed in December 1972 and it

824
00:37:24,349 --> 00:37:22,140
came into force in November 1980 the

825
00:37:26,299 --> 00:37:24,359
Covenant commits its parties to respect

826
00:37:28,479 --> 00:37:26,309
the civil and political rights of

827
00:37:31,099 --> 00:37:28,489
individuals including the rights to life

828
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:31,109
freedom of religion freedom of speech

829
00:37:36,609 --> 00:37:34,079
freedom of assembly electoral rights and

830
00:37:40,749 --> 00:37:36,619
rights to due process and a fair trial

831
00:37:46,519 --> 00:37:40,759
however the version of article 19 in the

832
00:37:48,469 --> 00:37:46,529
ICCPR amends that from the UDHR by

833
00:37:51,380 --> 00:37:48,479
stating that the exercise of these

834
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:51,390
rights carries quote special duties and

835
00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:54,210
responsibilities and may therefore be

836
00:38:00,019 --> 00:37:57,420
subject to certain restrictions when

837
00:38:02,690 --> 00:38:00,029
necessary for respect of the rights or

838
00:38:05,660 --> 00:38:02,700
reputation of others or for the

839
00:38:08,209 --> 00:38:05,670
protection of national security or of

840
00:38:10,789 --> 00:38:08,219
public order or of public health or

841
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:10,799
morals freedom of speech and expression

842
00:38:15,979 --> 00:38:13,410
therefore may not be recognized as being

843
00:38:18,170 --> 00:38:15,989
absolute and common limitations or

844
00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:18,180
boundaries to freedom of speech relate

845
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:21,680
to as wikipedia puts it libel slander

846
00:38:27,380 --> 00:38:24,410
obscenity pornography sedition

847
00:38:29,839 --> 00:38:27,390
incitement fighting words classified

848
00:38:32,660 --> 00:38:29,849
information copyright violation trade

849
00:38:34,670 --> 00:38:32,670
secrets food labeling non-disclosure

850
00:38:37,279 --> 00:38:34,680
agreements the right to privacy the

851
00:38:40,759 --> 00:38:37,289
right to be forgotten public security

852
00:38:42,670 --> 00:38:40,769
and perjury justifications for these

853
00:38:45,049 --> 00:38:42,680
limitations include the harm principle

854
00:38:45,930 --> 00:38:45,059
proposed by John Stuart Mill as we

855
00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:45,940
discussed in part

856
00:38:50,309 --> 00:38:48,609
one these limitations certainly those

857
00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:50,319
pertaining to incitement and fighting

858
00:38:55,470 --> 00:38:52,510
words did not seem to be an issue for a

859
00:38:58,290 --> 00:38:55,480
noted social critic named Chomsky who

860
00:39:00,720 --> 00:38:58,300
said in the 1992 documentary based on

861
00:39:03,089 --> 00:39:00,730
his book manufacturing consent that if

862
00:39:04,859 --> 00:39:03,099
you believe in freedom of speech you

863
00:39:07,650 --> 00:39:04,869
believe in freedom of speech for views

864
00:39:09,540 --> 00:39:07,660
you don't like dictators such as Stalin

865
00:39:12,540 --> 00:39:09,550
and Hitler were in favor of freedom of

866
00:39:14,069 --> 00:39:12,550
speech for views they liked only if

867
00:39:16,020 --> 00:39:14,079
you're in favor of freedom of speech

868
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:16,030
that means you're in favor of freedom of

869
00:39:21,870 --> 00:39:19,710
speech precisely for views you despise

870
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:21,880
it's hard to tell whether he was being

871
00:39:26,390 --> 00:39:24,490
critical of freedom of speech itself all

872
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:26,400
those who would want to restrict it

873
00:39:30,359 --> 00:39:28,510
these restrictions were discussed

874
00:39:32,010 --> 00:39:30,369
earlier this century by the European

875
00:39:34,349 --> 00:39:32,020
Commission for democracy through law

876
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:34,359
better known as the Venice Commission as

877
00:39:39,329 --> 00:39:36,880
it meets there the role of the Venice

878
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:39,339
Commission is to provide legal advice to

879
00:39:44,579 --> 00:39:42,130
EU members States and in particular to

880
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:44,589
help States wishing to bring their legal

881
00:39:48,050 --> 00:39:46,569
and institutional structures into line

882
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:48,060
with European standards and

883
00:39:52,770 --> 00:39:50,650
international experience in the fields

884
00:39:56,250 --> 00:39:52,780
of democracy human rights and the rule

885
00:39:58,140 --> 00:39:56,260
of law in 2006 the --use Parliamentary

886
00:40:01,319 --> 00:39:58,150
Assembly of the Council of Europe pass a

887
00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:01,329
resolution one five one zero on freedom

888
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:03,609
of expression and respect for religious

889
00:40:08,609 --> 00:40:05,890
beliefs particularly the question of

890
00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:08,619
whether and to what extent respect for

891
00:40:13,530 --> 00:40:10,569
religious beliefs should limited freedom

892
00:40:15,150 --> 00:40:13,540
of expression it expressed the view that

893
00:40:18,089 --> 00:40:15,160
freedom of expression should not be

894
00:40:20,099 --> 00:40:18,099
further restricted to meet increasing

895
00:40:23,370 --> 00:40:20,109
sensitivities of certain religious

896
00:40:25,079 --> 00:40:23,380
groups but underlined that hate speech

897
00:40:27,030 --> 00:40:25,089
against any religious group was

898
00:40:31,230 --> 00:40:27,040
incompatible with the European

899
00:40:33,569 --> 00:40:31,240
Convention on Human Rights in 2016 the

900
00:40:36,540 --> 00:40:33,579
Venice Commission noted that a democracy

901
00:40:39,780 --> 00:40:36,550
should not fear debate even on the most

902
00:40:42,329 --> 00:40:39,790
shocking or anti-democratic ideas it is

903
00:40:44,849 --> 00:40:42,339
through open discussion that these ideas

904
00:40:47,630 --> 00:40:44,859
should be counted and the supremacy of

905
00:40:50,130 --> 00:40:47,640
democratic values be demonstrated

906
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:50,140
persuasion through open public debate as

907
00:40:55,530 --> 00:40:53,530
opposed to ban or repression is the most

908
00:40:59,880 --> 00:40:55,540
democratic means of preserving

909
00:41:00,240 --> 00:40:59,890
fundamental values but as always seems

910
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:00,250
to have

911
00:41:05,090 --> 00:41:02,710
in debate on free speech since the days

912
00:41:07,590 --> 00:41:05,100
of John Stuart Mill there was a caveat

913
00:41:10,590 --> 00:41:07,600
the Venice Commission does not support

914
00:41:13,740 --> 00:41:10,600
absolute liberalism while there was no

915
00:41:15,780 --> 00:41:13,750
doubt that in democracy all ideas even

916
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:15,790
those shocking or disturbing should in

917
00:41:20,850 --> 00:41:18,370
principle be protected it is equally

918
00:41:23,940 --> 00:41:20,860
true that not all ideas deserve to be

919
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:23,950
circulated since the exercise of freedom

920
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:25,570
of expression carries duties and

921
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:27,910
responsibilities it is legitimate to

922
00:41:33,110 --> 00:41:30,490
expect from every member of a democratic

923
00:41:35,970 --> 00:41:33,120
society to avoid as far as possible

924
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:35,980
expressions that express scored or are

925
00:41:41,940 --> 00:41:38,290
gratuitously offensive to others and

926
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:41,950
infringe their rights so what account

927
00:41:47,820 --> 00:41:44,770
down to is yes you have freedom of

928
00:41:49,980 --> 00:41:47,830
speech but no you can't necessarily use

929
00:41:52,410 --> 00:41:49,990
it yes you have the right to your own

930
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:52,420
ideas but you can't necessarily express

931
00:41:57,570 --> 00:41:54,970
them and if you express them others have

932
00:41:59,940 --> 00:41:57,580
the right to criticize your ideas if not

933
00:42:02,700 --> 00:41:59,950
actually vilify you and most of all and

934
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:02,710
despite any regulation or legislation or

935
00:42:08,070 --> 00:42:05,770
philosophizing or imperial decree no one

936
00:42:09,090 --> 00:42:08,080
has to take you seriously and that's

937
00:42:13,579 --> 00:42:09,100
their freedom

938
00:42:16,530 --> 00:42:13,589
[Music]

939
00:42:32,099 --> 00:42:16,540
that's fighting words from the skeptic

940
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:32,109
June 2019 vol 39 number 2 the skeptic

941
00:42:37,170 --> 00:42:34,240
magazine the journal from Australian

942
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:37,180
skeptics subscribe online to the world's

943
00:42:44,339 --> 00:42:41,040
second oldest skeptical magazine visit

944
00:42:47,370 --> 00:42:44,349
wwf/e XCOM a you and click the

945
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:47,380
publication's link you can also find

946
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:51,760
there over 30 years on back issues free

947
00:42:59,480 --> 00:42:54,970
to download the skeptic magazine from

948
00:42:59,490 --> 00:43:11,950
[Music]

949
00:43:15,589 --> 00:43:13,120
[Applause]

950
00:43:17,299 --> 00:43:15,599
thank you for listening to the skeptic

951
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:17,309
zone I'm going to be traveling to

952
00:43:21,529 --> 00:43:19,200
Melbourne very soon where I hope to

953
00:43:23,450 --> 00:43:21,539
score a few interviews and do some

954
00:43:25,789 --> 00:43:23,460
promotional work for the upcoming

955
00:43:29,089 --> 00:43:25,799
Australian skeptics national convention

956
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:29,099
that's skeptic on 2019 now you can see

957
00:43:35,930 --> 00:43:31,729
the details of that yourself at skeptic

958
00:43:40,219 --> 00:43:35,940
on.org a you and that's going to be held

959
00:43:42,489 --> 00:43:40,229
on the 6th to the 8th of December so I

960
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:42,499
hope to bring you some more news and

961
00:43:48,380 --> 00:43:45,599
reports about that convention coming up

962
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:48,390
in next week's show thank you to those

963
00:43:52,069 --> 00:43:50,130
people who continue to support the

964
00:43:54,529 --> 00:43:52,079
skeptic zone through patreon or PayPal

965
00:43:57,309 --> 00:43:54,539
and thank you to those new patreon who

966
00:44:00,620 --> 00:43:57,319
have come on board just recently it

967
00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:00,630
certainly helps the show it's vital to

968
00:44:05,569 --> 00:44:03,150
the show it's necessary to the show it

969
00:44:08,150 --> 00:44:05,579
is pivotal to the show who has my

970
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:08,160
thesaurus without your kind donations

971
00:44:14,660 --> 00:44:11,729
and regular support there would be no

972
00:44:16,940 --> 00:44:14,670
skeptic zone imagine that imagine going

973
00:44:19,069 --> 00:44:16,950
through the week and having no skeptic

974
00:44:21,380 --> 00:44:19,079
zone to listen to how would you get

975
00:44:23,809 --> 00:44:21,390
through your daily commute so yes thank

976
00:44:27,349 --> 00:44:23,819
you very much those people indeed who

977
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:27,359
support the skeptic zone but for this

978
00:44:30,049 --> 00:44:29,729
week this is Richard Saunders signing

979
00:44:36,589 --> 00:44:30,059
off

980
00:44:38,660 --> 00:44:36,599
from Sydney Australia you've been

981
00:44:45,589 --> 00:44:38,670
listening to the skeptic zone podcast

982
00:44:48,019 --> 00:44:45,599
please visit our website at wwlp.com tax

983
00:44:51,950 --> 00:44:48,029
and to access the bat catalogue of

984
00:44:53,809 --> 00:44:51,960
episodes going back to 2008 you can

985
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:53,819
follow the skeptic zone podcast on

986
00:44:59,150 --> 00:44:56,880
twitter at skeptic zone visit our

987
00:45:00,490 --> 00:44:59,160
facebook page or leave a review on

988
00:45:02,710 --> 00:45:00,500
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989
00:45:06,099 --> 00:45:02,720
you can also support the sceptic zone

990
00:45:09,490 --> 00:45:06,109
via patreon or PayPal the sceptic zone

991
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:09,500
podcast is an independent production the

992
00:45:13,330 --> 00:45:11,210
views and opinions expressed on the

993
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:13,340
sceptic zone and not necessarily those

994
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:15,680
of Australian skeptics or any other

995
00:45:31,599 --> 00:45:29,090
skeptical organisation hello to those

996
00:45:33,010 --> 00:45:31,609
people who listen after the music we're

997
00:45:35,620 --> 00:45:33,020
going to play the dice game for those

998
00:45:40,830 --> 00:45:35,630
people new to this I roll a die either a

999
00:45:44,260 --> 00:45:40,840
10 sided die a d-10 or six-sided a d6

1000
00:45:45,790 --> 00:45:44,270
well today I'll roll both so you have

1001
00:45:50,710 --> 00:45:45,800
more chance if you use your psychic

1002
00:45:53,020 --> 00:45:50,720
powers or dumb luck to predict what

1003
00:45:59,320 --> 00:45:53,030
numbers are going to come up so first

1004
00:46:01,570 --> 00:45:59,330
I'll roll the d-10 d-10 okay so you've

1005
00:46:03,099 --> 00:46:01,580
got one in ten shot of getting the

1006
00:46:05,310 --> 00:46:03,109
number that's going to come up predict

1007
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:05,320
away here it comes

1008
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:09,530
seven if I don't write all these down I

1009
00:46:16,750 --> 00:46:11,330
will not remember them where's the

1010
00:46:19,870 --> 00:46:16,760
skeptics own pen you know it is so seven

1011
00:46:27,370 --> 00:46:19,880
now I'm gonna roll the d6 so you have a

1012
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:27,380
one in six shot predict away six alright

1013
00:46:34,990 --> 00:46:31,210
so that was the round one here's round 2

1014
00:46:37,150 --> 00:46:35,000
d-10 again okay you've got one in ten

1015
00:46:48,070 --> 00:46:37,160
shot of guessing this one predicting I

1016
00:46:51,579 --> 00:46:48,080
should say one you know the d6 one hmm

1017
00:46:58,780 --> 00:46:51,589
how about that last round here we go the

1018
00:47:05,760 --> 00:46:58,790
d-10 predict away and it's six is there

1019
00:47:08,980 --> 00:47:05,770
a pattern here and the d-10 last role is

1020
00:47:13,300 --> 00:47:08,990
under the computer oh come back here it

1021
00:47:19,050 --> 00:47:13,310
is six well that's interesting

1022
00:47:23,590 --> 00:47:19,060
so the numbers were 7 & a 6 a 1 and a 1

1023
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:23,600
and a 6 and a 6 in a couple of thousand

1024
00:47:27,220 --> 00:47:25,490
years when they on earth old copies of